No Compassion, No Idealization, Nothing Like That! A Conversation with Olivier Cablat on his Accordion Fold Contemporary Archaeology

Mirelle Thijsen (MT):

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Recently I purchased your publication CONTEMPORARY ARCHAEOLOGY, in particular because I adore accordion folded photo books. Flipping through the pages, I wondered about various topics: ‘mental reconstruction’; usage of found and vernacular objects as well as personal documents; a self-made photographic reportage about the mummy transfer of Ramesses I; and the book project itself. I understand everything in the book relates to a CNRS (Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique) program in Karnak, in the south of Egypt where you have been working since October 2003. What kind of program is that?

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Olivier Cablat (OC):

I had just finished my eight years of art studies when I was selected for a commissioned documentary photography project in Karnak, a major city in older Egypt. The AMON-Ra temple of Karnak is close to Luxor and for more than one hundred years French scientists have been working on this temple. CFEETK (Egyptian-French Center for studies on Karnak Temple), a branch of CNRS, leads a program of photographic documentation dedicated to archeology, Egyptology and architecture. Archeologists, artists, and anthropologists were all participating in this project, making new discoveries, reconstructing sections, finding artifacts, studying the epigraphs. A part of this program, supervised by Antoine Chéné, consisted of digital reconstruction of big sections of walls bearing epigraphs. The main part consisted of taking pictures of objects found during archeological excavations. I was assigned as a documentary photographer; I simply had to record the objects for scientificpublications.

 

04-OC- View from 1st Pylone

MT:

How did they find you, to do this kind of work?

 

OC:

There was an open call for students; I worked like a professional but was on a salary scale for graduate students. I was selected because I was already working in a documentary style, and I speak a little Arabic; the transition from student to professional went smoothly.

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MT:

Are you of Arabic descent?

 

OC:

No, but I am from the south of France, which is a region very much connected to Arabic culture. My wife is from Morocco, for example. Many of my friends, when I was in school, were from Morocco or Algeria. So many times I had reason to travel to Arab countries. I was considered to have project facilitation skills to go to Egypt.

 

MT:

And how does this scientific research project relate to the book project Contemporary Archaeology published in 2014?

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OC:

Yes, there is a long time in between the research and the book project! I need a lot of time to make things perfect. Just to explain, finalizing the project in Karnak: I participated in assembling the digital data. The biggest challenge for us was to integrate different parts of found artefacts containing epigraphs and to mount them in assemblages of multiple elements from individual photographs, using digital tools. Another part of the assignment was simply making photographic records of the objects. Sometimes we processed as many as 200 objects in a single day. It was impressive: for an Egyptian archeologist working in Karnak, the finds collected in one day would be equivalent to what one would collect after one year at an archeological site elsewhere in the world.

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MT:

So were you taught how to use digital tools, which you later applied to your documentary approach to photographing objects and people?

 

OC:

Exactly! I had the chance at the end of my art studies, at that time, to use the tools at the very start of the development of digital tools in art and photography. There was a question of morality underlying the work. In high school I was taught that with digital tools you distort reality. So when I started to work in the framework of scientific research there was no problem with morality at all! The task was to just be objective and efficient.

 

MT:

Please explain briefly what kind of objects you collected and recorded?

 

OC:

I worked on the official CNRS program for half a day; in the afternoon I used the same tools, the same light, the same technique, to record found objects in the street, in the garbage can at the office, or vernacular objects I bought at the corner shop, like my cigarettes packages. One of the objects in the book is an empty packaging of cigarettes, with the head of Cleopatra. It was a package I smoked.

 

MT:

What is does CNRS refer to?

 

OC:

CRNS is a French research institution, Le Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (National Scientific Research Center), financed by the government and involves a wide range of academic disciplines.

 

MT:

So what you did in the afternoons after working for CRNS relates to your initial intention regarding this project that you code-named: ‘Egypt 3000’. I understand that you started from raw material, found objects related to everyday life in contemporary Egypt; I assume you made no hierarchical judgments about the nature of the material, and applied the same treatment to it as scientific researchers do to ancient artifacts. Still, please explain the book title: what does it stand for? And, how did the project develop over the years?

 

OC:

The initial intention was to develop my own documentary research, involving a reflection on archaeology. I have been close to the discipline throughout my life, living in the south of France among archeological sites and later on even a little bored with the archeological classic works. I was most interested in investigating contemporary Egypt, contemplating on archaeological methods and worship Egypt. Because the Egyptian society is really fascinating: it’s very complex with a generous culture from the past and present, and has a socially constructed violence. The relation between men and women is complex in a cultural-historical context, as is the relation with tourism. One of the objects I present in the book is a banknote of Egyptian currency, one side of the note shows an archaeological site, the other a religious subject. Archaeology and religion are mixed in the same culture, making things rather complex.

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MT:

What does the title refer to?

 

OC:

‘Egypt 3000’ is referring to the future and at the same time it could be the name of a cheap corner kiosk. It is pretentious and unpretentious at the same time. One of the shops, dating from the 1980s, I went to for example was called ‘Electricité 2000’, or ‘Automobile 2000’.

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MT:

It seems as if you were in search of a fitting documentary mode, in order to show the material. You wanted to get away from the usual sequencing we know in photography and the documentary tradition. Furthermore you seemed to have a bias against what you call the patronizing and snobbish aspects of travel photography. How did you progress?

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OC:

I wanted to develop a photographic practice in a new way. Secondly, I wanted to make travel photography with the same rigor as a documentary project of my own, without any form of compassion towards the subject, keeping distance from it. I was enthralled by ethnology and sociology. I have been studying both. In those disciplines you learn to be objective regarding any kind of subject matter or topic: no compassion, no idealization, nothing like that! At the same time French orientalist painters intrigued me. They had a big influence on the interpretation of the Orient. All the clichés and all the constructed ideas about the oriental countries originated from these paintings that were made from artists’ studios in France. Many of the painters had actually not even been in the countries portrayed. They were charmed by superficial exotics, fuelled by both lack of time and self-investment. It is the opposite of the documentary approach! And in a way, I think travel photography is the same: You have an intention, a constructed idea before going to a location, and you verify it while making the picture on location. In sum, I wanted to question the ideas of the orientalist painters. And the third dimension involves writing in new ways about my own documentary practice. I wanted to make a clean sweep of everything I was taught by my teachers in art and photography. I really started from scratch with this project.

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MT:

I notice this approach in your publication Contemporary Archaeology. Your first book on the project entitled Enter the Pyramid (2012), triangular in shape, is composed of a set of images you found on the Internet using the keyword ‘pyramid’. What ideas did you want to convey through this publication?

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OC:

I presented the work in progress for the first time in 2012 at Antifoto (Düsseldorf), Winthertur Pla(T)form and then at the Rencontres d’Arles that same year. Afterwards, I decided to make an artist’s book on this project. The book consists only of found images from the Internet through different search engines, using the keyword Pyramid. It is the transposition of a digital installation. You can find the program on my website. If you have time… the installation contains about 3000 images. It is like a labyrinth, it is like the research on the enigma of a pyramid. This project, in a way, documents a mental journey, on fantasy and symbols preceding my trip to Egypt. When I decided to go to Egypt, I had prejudices about the country, the culture. It was a trans-historical mix in my mind. A disorder, I wanted to work out in a project. These images delve into a rich history concerning the representation of Egypt by the West, from the Napoleonic campaign to disco and funk album covers.

So I collected many, many pictures on the Internet, even organograms (schematic drawings showing how organizations are structured) in that pyramid shape. I documented a state of mind, a mental journey, started before I went to Egypt, continuing when I was there and finished six years later. It was complicated; it took me six years of programming to make this project. And it takes time to figure it out, to navigate through the miniatures; there are some pitfalls along the road. In Germany, some people have followed the program from the beginning till the end (and only in Germany)!

MT:

So are you a software programmer?

 

OC:

No, I am not a programmer; I experiment with digital software, learn how to use it and independently apply it to a photographic project. I use HTML Basic. It’s a program to make websites. I used it to build my own website. It is simple but it takes time. The idea was to make the first documentary digital installation with found pictures.

 

MT:

What strikes me, since I am not familiar with your earlier work, is that you have a specific scientific approach, a neutral and distant way of dealing with photography; resulting in stripped-off hybrid images of freestanding people or objects. Contextual features are removed: interior, surroundings. Your working method seems to derive from archeology: you collect thousands of images, classify them and make typologies, be it of jockeys or neglected vernacular objects. HOW and WHY are you imposing in that way reality on us?

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OC:

Some people are confused: on one side I create the pictures, on the other I am very close to the real objects, to real people. And because I don’t appreciate all the artefacts that make a picture beautiful, I tried to be as close as possible to the subject itself. And go as far as possible with the idea of using new objects as new forms, and new techniques for my artistic vocabulary. And I am integrating these skills in a new project. Like, ‘DUCK / A theory of evolution’ my new project is integrating everything from archaeology and scientific language, the association coming from a mixing different kind of pictures in one and the same work. I resist using photography pur sang. I can’t, and I don’t want to do it. Photographs that I take and that I find are on the same hierarchical level. Photography is not an act per se. It is all raw materials from which I can extract, select, copy and modify an internal organisation. It is the starting point of a project.

 

MT:

Do you make an assemblage?

 

OC:

 

Yes, yes. In my opinion that’s what digital world allows us to do: using images in combination with other materials, like in a puzzle, from which you can change and organize the parts the way you want.

 

MT:

What is the end result?

 

OC:

To be as close as possible to the intention; the final aim is to make a picture, consisting of different elements. I use the digital because it is the facility of today. It allows us to combine different timeframes, spaces, people, and things and present the final result on different supports.

MT:

You work with humour, the documentary practice, the media, high tech tools and assembled imagery. Would you please give an illustration, for example, based on the project ‘DUCK / A theory of evolution’?
 This project is produced by the Festival Images (Vevey, Switzerland), because you have been awarded the Nestlé Award at the Vevey International Photography Award 2013/2014.

 

OC:

As I explained earlier, in this recent project everything is integrated that I did before and is applied to a new subject. Starting from an architectural concept by Robert Venturi and Denise Scott-Brown from in the early 1970s, the concept of the ‘DUCK’, including all kind of structures, and the idea is that the form of the structure takes the form of something you can identify. I tried to create a fictional genealogy of a different kind of these buildings by using only found pictures.

 

MT:

I see that. Is it a kind of typology?

 

OC:

Yes, exactly. But we couldn’t do it like that before the Internet.

 

MT:

Do all these buildings in the shape of animals exist?

OC:

Yes. Even before Venturi picked it up. But he was the first to intellectualize it in his publication Learning from Las Vegas. It is a manifest for a new form of popular architecture. Venturi defines this kind of architecture. I decided to make a project of it, by using contemporary digital means, like finding some relevant pictures on the Internet, on Flickr, for example, and taking pictures from my collection of books on this subject, adding my own pictures, and mixing everything in this new project.

 

 

MT:

And what are these buildings actually used for? What goes on inside these ‘animals’? Is it, for example, a café?

OC:

Yeah, these are functional buildings. The DUCK was originally a shop; a place where you could buy roasted ducks! Another structure taking form of a Hot-Dog is a place to buy Hot-Dogs. Sometimes it is more complex. What you see in this movie ‘DUCK’ is about 10% of the integral project. The final project will consist of a feature movie, a fictional genealogy of these types of buildings showing the mutations of the original buildings, in morphing forms. There will be a book integrating some digital augmented reality, which you can access by iPhone, a scientific presentation of the mutations, and even some cookies, taking forms of Ducks, as well as the original building will be teleported from Long Island by using only pictures found on the Internet.

So the actual DUCK, the building itself, will be put up during the Vevey festival. I work with an architect (Antoine Mialon) and, just with found material from the Internet showing all the angels and sections of the building, we are able to re-create it with 3D software and send the plan by data transfer to a builder in Switzerland. Currently the team at Festival Images is building the DUCK.

 

MT:

But, didn’t the building once exist and didn’t Venturi design it?

 

OC:

No. He was enthralled by this kind of popular architecture; he is not the architect. This is vernacular architecture. The entire project is showing examples of this kind of vernacular architecture.

 

MT:

I understand now. That explains the book title: Learning from Las Vegas!

OC:

I tried to develop the idea, to conduct a photographic research on only one issue, one specific architectural form and display it multilayered, on many platforms, such as an exhibition, in scientific images, even cookies.

 

MT:

That is extraordinary. Let’s now discuss your recent publication: Contemporary Archaeology. It’s a plain looking accordion fold with cardboard covers. Why did you choose accordion fold binding?

 

OC:

In fact, when we compiled the pyramid shaped booklet it was a success because of the form. So we had to come up with something original again! Ha-ha. And a first edition of Contemporary Archaeology was an artist’s book, made as an experiment. I looked for a book technical shape allowing access to the complicated large montage in one single view.

MT:

You refer to Side One now?

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OC:

Yes.

 

MT:

We see an assembled photograph, a digital montage I assume, over a length of 1.80m, entitled: ‘Casern’s allegory’. What does the title mean or refer to?

 

OC:

It refers to Plato’s allegory of the cave, with militaries in the role of the shadows, the idea that a human being can consider his own experiment as reality. I was studying philosophy in high school and I remembered Plato’s allegory discusses the idea of your own reality being in front of what you see. It is the idea of the shadows: in the allegory of the cave chained prisoners are inside the cave and just see shadows on the wall, and those shadows constitute their reality. And in French ‘caverne’, which means cave, is really close to ‘casern’, which is an accommodation for soldiers. That is the joke!

 

The military soldiers in this long stretched photomontage are representing the shadows of the allegory of the cave. When I arrived in Egypt I was very impressed by the number of military soldiers and weapons you encounter everyday and everywhere in such a dictatorship. After a few months it was my daily reality like the reality of every Egyptian.

 

MT:

The caption related to this photomontage is found on the last page of Side One, at the very end of the zig-zag shaped booklet, and is fitted into a pyramid shaped triangular vermicelli-line. It reads: ‘Mental reconstruction. Made with unselected photographs from a photographic report about Ramesses I mummy transfer, from Karnak temple to Luxor museum, March 2004’. We see Egyptian police officers, in dark uniforms, armed, gesticulating, running, on motorbikes, all moving in one direction out of the frame. Civilians, kids too (all males) are watching the scene from the shade, on the side of a dusty, plain, yellowish road. Or they are running, walking and looking in the same direction. Where did you find this unpublished material? Why did you re-work and revive in particular these photographs?

 

OC:

The material itself was a result of a commissioned reportage, part of my official job in Egypt. I was making reportage on Egyptian antiquities. They found a mummy at Karnak temple, possibly identified as Ramesses I, but nobody really knows, and because of that discovery a national funeral was organised. The national flag was put on the coffin, there was television, there were politicians, and lots of military servants. They used a big veil boat to transport the mummy along the Nile to the museum of Luxor. I took about 80 pictures during the ceremony of the transportation of the mummy. The officials did not select half of the self-made photographs.

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MT:

So the actual reportage was published afterwards?

 

OC:

I don’t know.

 

MT:

But was the unselected material used for the book?

 

OC:

Exactly. I decided to use this rejected material.

With the ‘left overs’ of the reportage I created this new assemblage. It took me six months to make the digital montage consisting of 40 pictures.

 

MT:

So we see a digital montage looking like a single shot made during the day: one fake documentary photograph?

 

OC:

Exactly. It is a fake documentary picture, although based on a traditional approach, adapted to my methodology. That’s why the subtitle refers to <mental reconsrtcution>  

MT:

I thought these men were police officers, but they are military?

 

OC:

The scene expresses not only the idea of the cavern but also the idea of aimless emergency, which is the impression I got from the soldiers’ activities that I observed daily. In fact, some are chiefs of the secret police; those are people without uniform, who you are normally not allowed to photograph. Others are chiefs of the military as well. Yet others are young soldiers in military service in Egypt.

 

MT:

So some of the civilians, all men, are military and police officers under cover? Maybe that’s why those images were not selected?

OC:

Yes, yes.

 

MT:

Let’s look now at Side Two, which is entitled: ‘Towards a contemporary archaeology’. It is a collection of found objects in Karnak and Luxor (Upper-Egypt), from October 2003 to June 2004. Each freestanding object, be it an empty cigarette packaging, a doormat, a mobile phone card or a banknote, has a unique number and a funny pseudo-scientific caption. Can we go through the ten pages and objects; please describe WHAT you found, and WHERE, and elaborate on the caption.

 

OC:

The ticket: this is simply an entrance ticket to the temple of Karnak.

MT:

And the caption of this picture reads: ‘economical perspectives’.

 

OC:

Yes. In fact I was really more interested in these trivial objects than by the valuable archaeological objects. I was impressed by the powerful graphics and the playful use of antic references on contemporary useful objects. And the way of recording these objects, as I explained earlier, is exactly the same as I used for documenting scientific artefacts: I created the same typologies; used the same system with numbers and titles. I gave these found and collected trivial objects a fake scientific definition in a caption, at the same time expressing something about the contemporary Egyptian society. And the fact is, the only thing Egypt can count on for the future, in economical terms, is tourism. Like selling entrance tickets to the temples.

 

MT:

That is very clear. And the next page is showing ‘the banner’?

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OC:

It is a doormat at the entrance of my office. I wanted to have the liberty to interpret this daily object as a ‘banner’. But maybe I can say something about the cassettes, the tapes?

There are two cassettes among the found objects selected for the book. One is of a belly dancer. You spoke yourself about the fact there was not a woman on the street. That is the reality in Egypt; women are not very visible, especially in the south of the country.

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MT:

So, that picture of the doormat with the word ‘welcome’ on it is rather cynical.

 

OC:

You can interpret it like that.

The belly dancer depicted on the cassette is called Souheir Zaky. She is a famous belly dancer from the 1970s and 1980s. But nowadays-Egyptian girls are no longer practising belly dancing because it is forbidden by the state. I was told all the belly dancers are now coming from Russia and Germany.

 

MT:

Where did you find this object?

 

OC:

It is from my own collection. I bought it at a music store, while collecting some cassettes.

 

MT:

Oh, they still have music on cassettes in Egypt? And that’s why it is called an ‘endangered object’.

 

OC:

Yes. It is a play of words between the woman as an object and the music cassette as such, in both senses of the word.

 

MT:

Let’s continue to the next page with the images, a series. What are we looking at?

 

OC:

This is an onogram on the official ID from Egyptians. This one is depicting Ramses IInd I think.

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MT:

You collected them?

 

OC:

Yes. I took pictures from the onograms with a camera used to photograph insects. I made different pictures. They show the mixing of the religious world with the antique figuration of the pharaohs. So you perceive a direct connection between the identity and the schizophrenia of Egyptian society.

 

MT:

How did you come across these ID’s?

 

OC:

I simply asked colleagues at my office for their ID’s and made pictures.

 

MT:

And you gave these pictures the following caption: ‘economical identical reminiscence’. I presume that is a play on words.

 

OC:

I like to create neologies; in French it works! It is not correct in terms of grammar, but the ID is also very complex referring to economy, religion and antique times.

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MT:

Another interesting one is the telecard. Where did you find this object?

 

OC:

I bought it, because at that time there was no Internet, I bought a card to talk to my wife in France. Such a card is expensive and was good for 30 seconds telephone call.

 

MT:

And you added the title: ‘a map of Egypt’.

 

OC:

Yes, because in French ‘map’ is the same word ‘carte’ [telephonique]…but…

In fact, you don’t need a map; just this picture and you know it represents Egypt.

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MT:

Then we go to your daily cigarettes. I like in particular the caption here: ‘restoration’.

You mention ‘the state of discovery’ showing one crumbled packaging and next to it a package showing ‘the state after restoring’. Would you please comment on this?

 

OC:

I simply used both faces of the same tobacco package. The package, showing a picture of Cleopatra, was the one I used to smoke. The price was like 15 cents. On one side is writing in English and on the other in Arabic. I showed both faces, side by side, to evocate the manner in which Europeans and Americans practiced restoration. Sometimes temples look like fakes after restoration.

 

I wanted to use a metaphor of restoration. Because in the south of Egypt all the temples sites, where excavations are taking place, where they are digging, are all commissioned to different nations. The French work on the temple of Karnak, The US, Poland and Spain elsewhere. That is the way restorations are financed and made possible in Egypt.

 

MT:

Everybody gets a piece of the cake?

 

OC:

In a way it sounds ideal, but I was struck by the way it is done. A Polish team is, for example, supervising The Atchepsout temple restoration, near the Valley of the Kings. They collected all the stones and pillars and re-built it, as if they were building a new house. It looks like Disneyland. And each country has its own policy regarding restoration. Further, Egyptology is an occidental discipline, executed by the West. Egyptology is not an academic study in Egypt, and is only taught at contemporary fine art schools.

 

MT:

That is quite a statement. This page in the book, I guess, shows a freestanding picture of a bag of chips?

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OC:

Yes, it is. I did not taste it, though.

 

MT:

And the caption reads: ‘elementary perspective’. Who are the persons on the package?

 

OC:

Jean-Claude Van Dame and Dennis Rodman, a famous Belgian action movie actor and a famous American basketball player.

.

 

MT:

And what about the caption?

 

OC:

Egypt is importing most of its food supplies, except for some vegetables and fruits cultivated along the Nile. When there is an economic crisis, and a country is dependent on import, in addition to being poorly organized and overpopulated and no means to grow its own vegetables, the future is pessimistic. Each found object has got its own story and I used the scientific caption to give some key information.

MT:

Then we have two sides of a bank notes depicted on a following page.

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OC:

Yes. This is a bill of 50 Piasters.

 

MT:

How much is that in euros?

 

OC:

50 Piasters equals to 7 eurocents…

 

MT:

What do you buy for that in Egypt? How many packages of cigarettes?

 

OC:

Half a package! Ha-ha. One Pound is equal to 15 eurocents. So a package of cigarettes is 15 cents.

 

MT:

And why did you add the caption ‘culturo-economical schizophrenia’.

 

OC:

Why…? Because that is the truth. One side is dealing with antiquities, with pharaohs. The other side is showing a mosque. There are always these two sides to the coin: antiquities and religion. And the relation between the two is complex because antiquities are previous to monotheist religions. During the Christian times, Egyptians destroyed some parts of the temples. The representation of figures, associated to animals or people was forbidden…

 

MT:

You mean iconoclasm?

 

OC:

Yes, exactly. But the Egyptian Christians used also the temples as churches, to practice their religion. And after the Christian civilisation, the Muslim civilisation mostly ignored the temples and the antiques. Some temples were covered by sand dunes for years. And most of the temples are well conserved because of that. And now archaeologists are searching in the sand and exploring inside the temples.

 

MT:

Two more pictures: Who are these men?

archeo05

OC:

This is one single man represented in four portraits, the Sufi style singer called Sheikh Amin Al-Dishnawi. He is a star of Zikr Sufi music from central Egypt. I went to a presentation he gave in the south of Egypt. I had to walk a long time at night to get there, and I was the only person from the West. He represents a Zikr Sufi ritual that is not recommended by official religious leaders. During four or five hours he chants and people enter a trance; it is really peaceful and impressive to watch. It is one of the rare occasions that women and men could be mixed.

MT:

Is it a poster, or a card?

 

OC:

This is a tape, a music cassette.

 

MT:

And the last one is so cute: one last match left in a match package. And your caption reads: ‘industrial perspective’. Did you need it to light your cigarettes?

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OC:

It was a present. A friend of mine, a French conceptual photographer I worked with: Gael Polin, handed it to me. And I decided to never touch it. I keep the last match till my last day. Regarding the caption: A lot of industry is concentrated along the strip of the Nile. If that same industry is disposing of its industrial waste in the river, it kills whatever is developed. And besides that Egypt is extremely dependent of other countries.

 

MT:

One final question: Contemporary Archaeology could well be considered a work in progress. Are you planning a follow-up?

 

OC:

Everything I did in Egypt has been presented about eight years after taking the first pictures. I took a long time to process the material. I consider the project as finished until my next journey to Egypt. The continuation of the research, the mixing of archaeology and photography, as well as the documentary approach and the idea of erasing the context of pictures – as I do in the DUCK project –will continue.

 

[Read more: daily diary by Olivier Cablat containing all the pictures of the book: http://egypt3000-oliviercablat.tumblr.com]

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